So assuming the official record is "accurate" it took them a long time to get water running from the fire hydrants into the fire engines and on to the house. I stood there for a good 15-20 minutes watching and waiting for them to start pumping significant amounts of water onto the fire. It was horrible watching the firefighters running a single hose of water from the ground for that 15-20 minutes before they got water running from 2 ladder trucks. Once the ladder trucks got running and you could see the huge hoses on the ground from the hydrants getting filled-up we all had a collected is of relief that it probably wasn't going to get worse but for those horrible minutes before that we were all worried that this fire was going to be an even bigger disaster. And BTW a friend of mine from the neighborhood just a couple of houses away from the fire called 911 a lot earlier than 12:22. He was even out there with a fire extinguisher trying to help put out the fire so the "official" record seems conveniently regular and not out of the ordinary.

PS: I'm not trying to disparage the firefighters themselves. They worked very hard to try and get things under control but someone's got to take a look at how a 911 call about a fire gets prioritized and manged and see if the procedures in place are not getting in the way of helping those who are in need. The police were in the neighborhood very quickly (first on the scene) as well but a police car is not equipped to put out these kinds of fires. There was a report that the trucks had a hard time getting to the fire once they reached the community and that doesn't surprise me since it's often difficult to get around the islands with a passenger car let alone a fire truck. For the life of me, I can't understand why people are allowed to park near those islands. Nor can I understand why any rational person would choose to park there since it seems that you'd be begging for someone to side-swipe you there. Also, I don't know if the fire trucks or the fire hydrants were the reason that it took so long to get the ladder trucks pumping water but someone's got to take a look at that as well. It could mean the difference between just filling out insurance claims or having to make an appointment with a funeral director.

What a lot of people don't fully understand is that when you call 911 from a cell phone is does not always got right to that towns police deptartment. It hits the nearest cell phone tower and then could hit Hamilton police dispatcher, west Windsor police or state police dispatcher. Then if it hits one of those dispatch centers it has to be transferred to the proper town. (not saying the person or persons used cell phone) . I also googled the address of the fire to see what the development looked like and is it possible there is only one big water loop for fire hydrants, so wouldn't it be like running your washer while taking a shower and get low water pressure. Just a question iam no expert and could be way off.

@Blueline I'm not asserting any expertise I'm just saying that it took what seemed like a really long time for the fire department to get on scene from the time the 911 call was made. I'm not saying that they didn't respond as soon as they could when they were informed I'm saying that the way a 911 call is managed might be kind of a problem. This report only identifies when the firefighters were dispatched and not when 911 was notified and something between those 2 points may need to be fixed. And getting significant amounts of water on the fire also seemed to take a really long time and maybe something could be addressed there as well. And maybe people shouldn't be parking around the islands since that seems to have made it difficult for the firefighters to arrive sooner. No one person, no single institution is perfect and everybody has slip ups. My point is that if we collectively don't take the time to learn what went wrong and learn from that then we run the risk of slipping up again. The Liberty Green community should do something about the cars parked near the islands and maybe the emergency services of Lawrenceville could look at the fire hydrants and their equipment to make sure they are working as expected. Is there anything wrong with that?

@Ben Thanks very much for all the hard work you do to help your neighbors. I'm truly very gratefull. You save lives and I can think of no better thing to do for your community. I apologize if you feel that I was criticiszing your efforts. That was not my intention. I was there and witnessed your determination and the risks you take. I just have questions about how you guys were notified and why that seems to have taken so long. The neighbor in question used a land line so how does that get managed? Is there anything we can do when calling 911 to make sure you guys get the right information as soon as possible? Could the caller have added something that would have helped route the call more efficiently? Is there something we as a community could do about making it easier for you guys to get to a fire? I'm guessing that those cars around the island were the biggest issue. I don't want to blame anyone for anything I just want to make sure that if god forbid I have to make that call I do everything in my power to not get in the way of getting help to where it's needed and that if there's something that the township could review or help enforce that they do the same as well.

Thanks again for what you do!

1. The original 911 call came in as an automatic alarm. I can tell you that the fire departments get hundreds of these calls a year. Automatic alarm. Alarm malfunctions. IMHO if you want these calls taken more seriously, more needs to be done to prevent false 911 calls via automatic alarms. My husband is a firefighter, and every time we hear automatic alarm as a dispatch we roll our eyes because they are almost always BS calls. Fines need to be assessed to repeat offenders for these automatic alarms. Then people would fix theri alarm systems, there would be less false alarms (bot that cried wolf, anyone?), and automatic alarm calls might be made a bigger priority. Only after PD arrived on scene was this upgraded to a fully involved structure fire, which would then cause mutual aid (other fire companies) to be called in.

2. Most 911 calls made from a cellphone are routed to a State police dispatcher who may or may not be familiar with your area. That dispatcher must then reroute the call to the appropriate municipality's dispatch center.

3. The dispatch reports, if I'm not mistaken, are electronically generated from the audio tapes recorded at the dispatch center, i.e., the actual dispatcher's phone lines. While there may be a way to alter the tapes and reports, in my 21 years as an emergency responder, I've never seen a way to do so.

4. When complaining about response times, remember that people in general do not yield to the blue lights on volunteer vehicles, and often do not yield to our emergency vehicles. We can't get there any faster if the public won't let us by. Perhaps parking along the access road to this complex should be reviewed for safety and whether it adversely impacts response times. Remember that emergency vehicles are a lot wider than your personal vehicle. I have to wonder if some of the people that are complaining about response times here are the same people that complained when a fire truck was involved in an accident responding to a fire call a few months ago. Then, people complained that it was *just* a mulch fire and why were they going fast. Here we have a dispatch for an automatic alarm, and people complain they went too slow. These firefighters are damned if they do and damned if they don't.

5. Please remember that when a event like this happens, time seems to go slowly. One minute feels like ten.

6. To those that complain about the length of time it takes to actually fill the hoses: fire hydrants MUST be flushed prior to filling hoses. If they are not flushed first, rocks, dirt, silt, and other debris will get into the hoses and clog them, or even worse, damage the pumping mechanism of the truck, rendering that truck inoperable. Yes, it takes time. To someone untrained, it may seem like a waste of time. To the fire department, it means the difference between pumping water on the fire or fixing 5 to 6-figure damage to an inoperable pumper.

Heres a shout out to all the professional volunteers who at a moments notice are ready to risk there lives for their fellow neighbors. Thanks from a grateful Lawrence resident.

So roll your eyes wife of a firefighter answer this? are you saying that automatic fire alarm calls are made a less priority than other calls? I would really like to investigate that statement!

lets not forget to take in the fact that our town LOVES the oh mighity "PRINCETON" speed humps.... and that slows the responders down far more then the intended offenders! I saw a fire engine hit one on gedney at what I will call 10mph and it sounded like a bomb went off and the driver looked like he damn near lost his teeth. So that size of truck must slow down to about 3mph to make them and Im sure this street has about 10 either way you go! seconds count and when you have to stop every 50ft that takes time.

There was a movement in April/May by Ewing to consolidate dispatch services into our police dispatch center. Puliti was supposed to be following up on that. Never saw anything about it here?? Mike, were you there? Are you still w/22? If so, I hope you are not taking the posts here to heart. I would want to see some reaction quotes from our elected officials... If you tried and got no where say so. Hey, did they find the dog?

Ricky Bobby no name calling please! Its started as an automatic then reported as a working fire! So next time you think a automatic isn't important and someone dies, you tell the families it wasn't a priority! you ingrate!

Hey Liberty Green Neighbor just a heads up.......Per map quest from 21 Slack ave (slackwood fire co.) to 126 Fountayne Ln (house fire) the fastest route is 9 minutes......So in case you don't understand then let me clarify.... The first Engine arrived about 11 mins 30 secs after the dispatch .........Hmmmmm pretty impressive in my eyes.....Keep counting beans

How did the fire come

Ricky Bobby and SHSB I agree an automatic burglar alarm has less priority than a armed robbery. But a fire is a fire and we are talking about life safety here how do make a statement about choosing priority? How do you sleep at night especially if you take an oath! shame on you!!

I appreciate the efforts of the fire department and certainly do not criticize any of their work. In fact I am very grateful that they saved the other two house. I am a Liberty Green resident and don't live far from the scene. I saw it all happen. The thing that concerns me is the response system. This article mentions that the trucks were here in 12 minutes. This is not true. If the firefighters were sleeping at their homes then 12 minutes is impossible. If you think about it, a person has to get out of bed, put his clothes on, get in his own car, drive to the firestation, get in the trucks, then drive to scene. How can all this happen in 12 minutes. Even when the trucks arrived the firefighters couldn't get the hose going! They were not ready for this type of situation. They shouldn't have sent the volunteer firefighters if they were inexpierenced. Also SHSB said that cars don't yield for the emergency vehicle. BUT there wouldn't be many vehicles on the road at 12:30 am on a Sunday night. If you disagree with me, just remember. There were only a few people who saw everything. Many people came later. I was one of the ones that saw it all.

Mr. Liberty green let me explain something since you just can't comprehend.........I live the furthest from the station at 3 blocks, two guys where staying at the station and the other two live less then 200yards......... Sooooooo hopefully you are smart enough to still follow me here! I was at the station in less then 2 minutes from dispatch and the rest of the crew was boarding the truck.......what does this mean for the uneducated??? This means the truck was on the road around the the 5 minute mark and on Scene around 12, sooooo this means 7 minutes on the road which is 2 minutes faster then map quest states...... Why 2 minutes less ?? Probably because we responded at emergency speed....... Get it yet???? By the way my name is posted if you need a better explanation , look me up

Council really your not going to step in and back the people that save you millions of dollors in fire service but your going to back the chief of police who cost the twp thousands of dollors!!!! What a joke Greg when you run on a public safety ticket!!! Joke again all 3 fire companies are taking apps. Sign up or shut up!!!

First your to fast now you to slow. Maybe one day they will understand or join up and help you get your trucks out at the "perfect time"

MR PINGALDI U ARE ABSOLUTELY CORRECT. LIBERYY GREEN U ARE AL INCORRECT ITS NOT EVEN FUNNY WALK A DAY IN A FIRE FIGHTERS SHOES I GARENTEE U WON'T LAST..BECAUSE I EVEN TRIED AND COULDN'T DO IT MYSELF. MR LIBERTY I HOPE YOUR HOUSE DOESNT BURN BECAUSE I WOULDNT WANT THE FIRE FIGHTERS TO GET THERE " TO FAST"

Thank You Volunteer Citizen Firefighter. You ran into the fire, not many would do that.
My concern however is the skill set of our brave Fire Fighters. A police officer had to ask a resident the lactation the fire hydrant. What is the use of an own board data system that cannot tell a First Responder where the public services on a street are; there should be an App for that.
Where is the water? Once connected to the hydrant, the site Command asked for water from the Lawrence TWSP pumper truck, the firefighter replied it is on the way, and we watched the large diameter hose lay flat as the firefighter struggle with controls of the Lawrence TSWP pumper truck. Again over the radio we heard the site Command demand for the water. The same reply “it is on the way”. The “nearly two thousand feet” of large diameter hose lay flat. Finally, the pumper truck from Pennington TSWP took control of the line and still we waited as the operator made the connections. But water did flow and fill the large diameter hose many minutes later. And Lawrence’s truck stood by like a wet noodle.

Would the damages to the three homes been less had the water flowed earlier. I think it would have had a significant difference.
• Because of the layout, Fountayne Lane needs a clear disaster - action plan.
• A plan that is mindful of the one way in or out of Liberty Green.
• Cars are parked on the narrow street and at the medians.
• That First Responders data ports should locate things like hydrants; this would also prevent equipment from gathering in packs and unable to move.

Open up a station 24 liberty green hook and ladder

Smokey u were probably in special Ed classes growing up because pennington wasn't even on the scene

Phill I respect your fails attempts to fight the red devil you sir are a great citizen not everyone can do it like we do at lindwood hose

Good call Phil !! FYI on arrival the fire building was a write off and the primary action was to protect the exposure buildings , oh and by the way smokey way to be a coward and hide behind a screen name, two thumbs up!!

So next time your car doesn't start and you cant get to work you better blame your self for it breaking. It's a piece of equipment and even with the most maint in the world things still fail. At least there was another truck to put in its place an do the job. Because of all this talk on the patch I stopped and talk to a lawrence twp firefighter today an happen to ask about the computer system like the cops have an they just don't have the funding

One comment regarding training: developments were built near/around/behind the Dempster Fire Training Center, i.e., the Dempster Center was there first. Despite knowing they were buying a property next to a fire training center, the residents complained to Lawrence Township about the smoke and noise coming from the Dempster Center during live burn drills. Because of these complaints, live burn activities were significantly limited.(My husband's fire company actually goes all the way to Sayreville for live burn training now because they are rarely allowed to do live burns at Dempster any more in the evenings when volunteers usually train.

So now residents want to criticize the training levels of the volunteers after complaining about and forcing the curtailing of their live burn training activities in their own town and county.

Again, damned if you do, damned if you don't, even when the volunteers get all the appropriate training, even if it means traveling an hour out of the county.

Also smokey do u know how long it takes to lay a hose line?...if so and u think u can do better please join a fire company u would be our hero

So to the firefighters and first responders who are posting here can you let everyone know what it is that you know needs to be addressed if anything about this fire or did things go exactly as expected? Do you guys need more support from the community to get funding, training more volunteers, etc. You have a bunch of residents in this neighborhood who are currently pretty well motivated to help you guys get what you need.

Does anyone know what type of car went on fire

Things went as well as they could have considering the fire conditions we were met with on arrival. Are you that naive to think the dwelling could have been saved? Two additional dwellings were pretty much untouched due to the efforts of the Lawrence township firefighters ,great job to all!

I am sad this has gotten so nasty. We are neighbors,and we count on our fire fighters to help in time of need. I do not believe they didn't try to get here as fast as possible. I am sure they did not want to lose a house, but thankfully we didn't lose more than one and no lives were lost. What are we bitching about. I know I couldn't do better. I stood there and watched with my hand over my mouth in disbelief. I will not blame anyone, but I will do my best to help and make sure I continue to keep the road clear of vehicles so emergency vehicles can get there easily. Rather than criticizing, let's work as a team, keep the street clear and thank those that come to our rescue

LGN... I can probably speak for the firefighters here and say MORE SUPPORT. U and a few others down them when they were trying their hardest and treating the scenario like it was there own house.

It was a Jeep Grand Cherokee I think.

Thanks Barbara,glad to see some support

@Phil McCrackin
Ok Phil firefighters and first responders need support but can you offer some specific things that we can do? The people closest to the issue usually have the best sense of what's working and what isn't. So how can we help?

@Chris pangaldi
Chris I haven't stated that I thought the house could have been saved I was worried that the fire seemed to be burning out of control and was worried that it might get worse. If you're saying that my concerns are unfounded and you yourself are a first responder and can say definitively that it was under control then I will take you at your word. If things didn't go as well as expected and the volunteers need more support than let's make that happen.

@Chris pangaldi
As far as response time is concerned my issue there was not how quickly the firefighters responded when they were notified my concern was the time it took between 911 call being made and the fire dept getting notified about the 911 call. But SHSB offered a pretty comprehensive explanation there so thanks SHSB.

Its hilarious what people argue about on this website.

I asked about the car due to the fact that Ford Escape have a recall on them for catching fire and I was wondering if that was the cause. I am willing to do anything we need to help this family.. This is horrible..

Civility has really gone out the window, hasn't it? The fire fighters did a fantastic job containing the fire. They are appreciated very much by most of us who live in Liberty Green. Unlike many people, they are using their "spare" time in a selfless way for the benefit of all. In any emergency, every minute feels like a lifetime. People are upset for the family. Once people calm down, I'm sure they will focus on more productive activity: donate to the family, get the parking rules changed, join the fire department. Action speaks louder than words.

http://mybigfatfamilyblog.wordpress.com/2012/08/14/burning/
as a lifelong resident if this town, i invite you to read what it feels like, from my point of view to serve and this town.
as friends of the family who just lost their home i would like you all to shut up and figure out a
productive way to help them. and at this point maybe the most productive thing you can do is shut up

First of all, it's a worst nightmare for anyone living in match boxes that we live in.

Everyone is grateful that no lives were lost and fire contained at one house. I know at least 3 people who live around / next to the unlucky house who swear the time it took for any real action to start. Please - this is not against any one person or the brave fire fighters, it is a combination of so many things which could have resulted in this response time...

I live in the same community and worry about these :

1. Will 25+ minutes be always the best time any other incident might get ?
2. Why has the parking been allowed on the curb, especially around the islands? Shouldn't it be against the fire code?
3. This is clearly an unacceptable overall response time (no offense to the brave firemen), but something is either wrong in the community's approach road design, I am hoping this is not the best response time

Fire fighters team, and specially the chiefs or anyone else who who is a senior person on the team, can something be done to improve the response time, keeping in mind how quickly the whole whole dwelling got charred down in this incident. I am again relieved that no one got seriously hurt, it could have been much worse and we need to know what can be done to make it better.

1.The response times clearly aren't much of an issue and under National standards by almost a minute. 2. The lack of water was because of the water supply system in this particular neighborhood.It is what is commonly referred to as a " loop" system, the water basically flows in a circle pattern in that neighborhood with only one main feeding it ,so when you open one hydrant and then one down the street you are using the same water and essentially "rob Peter to pay Paul". 3. The rapid fire spread in this house is because of the way these homes are constructed it is called light weight construction, truss construction and less the 2x4 construction allows the fire to spread quickly in these types of homes.There is not an issue with type of construction in being sub par it is the strongest way to build homes cost effectively but they do not stand up well to fire. Its a miracle that more than one house did not burn because in prior incidents around the country with this amount of fire the average loss is around 3 home. So how do you stop this from happening ? Push your legislators to for residential sprinklers or be pro active and get them installed yourself.Builders frequently block attempts to make residential sprinklers law because of cost but really it is minimal about an additional $500 per house. What really matters is that no one died and property can be replaced but the issues raised have been answered

Once again the response time was not an issue. You people keep bringing up the same points that have already been answered. Instead of talking about it on the website why don't you go to the township and complain. Leave the discussion of the fire service to the fire service personnel and the public safety committee. If you think you are an expert there are applications available at all 3 firehouses is for you to pick up, sign on the dotted line and apply.

Thanks to pridesouthof95. I looked at some of the fire service websites. A fire doubles in size every min. My question is how long did it burn inside the house before any fire was showing for a person outside to see. All you people keep pointing fingers at the firefighters response time. The official records show there was zero problem with that and iam sure thats the same paperwork and times that would be used in court. So if your going to point finger (that's what your doing even if you say your not) call the police department and find out how the 911 call was transferred and handled. An another thing fire trucks arent giant rolling garden hoses that you flick a switch and you have water. They need to be set up and that may very well take a few mins. Stop looking at Facebook and do alittle reading on how things work

That's exactly it Joe. Some of these folks fail to realize that setting up big water requires big hose and big appliances. This takes time and manpower. It's not the usual bedroom fire where you can stretch a small line right in the door and you're on your way. Then add to it, the first couple of crews are assigned to the priority at that type of incident which are the houses next to the fire. So while it may look like not much is going on to get big water onto what the on lookers feel is the priority, that just isn't the case. I think those who have serious questions should look up an officer from the one of the fire companies and find out how things actually work. Ask them what they need and how things work for different types of incidents. I'm sure they would be more than happy to have more people on the same page.

facts about the Lawrence Township fire service and problems associated with this specific fire...

- Lawrence Township's firefighting force is 100% volunteer in the evening, night, and weekend hours.
-Lawrence Township fire houses are not equipped with bunk rooms for members to stay overnight. Members will be responding from their homes in the middle of the night.
- the house on fire was located in the back of a large neighborhood that is not close to any firehouse.
-the closest firehouse located at Lawrence Sq., Village was closed due to lack of  volunteers to keep in operation
-As stated before newer construction houses such as these have the potential to collapse under fire conditions within five minutes
-although it took several minutes for LATER arriving firetrucks to supply the aerial master streams on top of the first arriving apparatus the exposures were protected within minutes of fire apparatus arrival due to hand lines operated by firefighters on the ground which will deliver 220 gallon per minute each. Enough to keep the neighbors houses from igniting.

-tight streets, poor water system, and mechanical failure due to an aging fleet of apparatus were factors in the hindrance of establishing a SECONDARY and TERTIARY water supply within a timeframe greater than expected.
-when the fire department is faced with heavy fire conditions upon arrival such as this. It is the mission of the fire department to, not put water on the actual fire, but to protect exposures that are not involved in fire. To the laymen it may look as of the fire department is not doing their job because the fire continues to burn intensely in the original fire building, but in actuality firefighters had a handle on the fire almost immediately. It was this tactic that prevented the rest of the neighborhood from burning down.
-the firefighters successfully executed operations set forth by the officers running the incident in a timely manner. This is the reason why the fire did not go to a greater alarm aka a special call for more personnel and apparatus then initially anticipated. 
-All Lawrence Township firefighters and fire officers are trained to standards set by the New Jersey Division of Fire Safety.
-Parking is a minimal issue compared to the overall layout of the neighborhood. 
-the fire service is generally viewed as a walking, talking, living, breathing insurance policy and many people are not fans of paying insurance premiums. Volunteer firefighters in Lawrence Township generate a savings of 5%to 15% on property taxes.

This event is unfortunate. It always is very sad when someone loses their home, possessions (and in this case, dog) due to fire. Even with the official response and arrival statistics provided, blame is still being placed on the firefighters, shifting the complaints that “it took even longer” to “Put the wet stuff on the hot stuff”. It is amusing at best; that the very same Lawrence Residents, Patch.com Internet Trolls, vote down 2% budget increases, accept proposed Police and Fire Layoffs, yet complain when they need help and do not receive it in a timely manner – FOR FREE!!!!

Imagine this scenario: Officer Sexton wasn’t in the area, because his position was eliminated or he was re-assigned to a high-crime area, who would have reported the “Real Fire” as opposed to the alarm? What if the volunteer firefighter decided that his/her 7am work conference call was more important than responding to another “malfunctioning” alarm in the middle of the night?

A few of you have asked what you can do to support us. I have a few suggestions:
--Let the restrictions on our training activities at Dempster be lifted or at least modified to allow more live burn training.
--Let the Township know that cutting our budget and personnel is unacceptable. (I have very vocally complained that there have been no cuts to activities at the Senior Center, yet they are cutting firefighter positions. Is having canasta AND yoga AND line dancing AND pinochle AND zumba for the seniors all more important than our fire service?)
--Consider volunteering at your local fire company. If you can't volunteer as a firefighter, consider helping with fundraising or making a donation.
--THANK us when we're out all night fighitng a fire in your neighborhood. Especially if it's on a weeknight and we have to show up at our paid jobs the next day.

Congratulations should be given to the firefighters, that the two other homes didn't also succumb to the flames. Plastic siding sometimes melts. Knowing this development, it could have easily gone down like dominoes - one after another.

Thanks to our volunteers who responded about as quickly as can reasonably be expected, or quicker. Thanks to Mr. Ratcliffe for thoroughly documenting it for the public.

If we didn't make mistakes, there wouldn't be fires. Nobody is immune.

In the post-mortem, for those rightfully concerned with improving our safety and security, I suggest we go for some low-hanging fruit. One good place to start might be to consider:

http://firesprinklerinitiative.org/resources/fact-sheets/about-anti-sprinkler-legislation.aspx

You get what you pay for.

I witnessed the fire and salute the efforts made by the firefighters. I don't know why the response time of firefighters is being questioned when we know they wouldn't have stopped at Wawa to get a cup of coffee when the call came in. They got here as soon as humanly possible. It takes a lot of courage to hold the hose and advance towards the fire and it is very easy to hide behind an internet name and question everything because you pay few thousand dollar in taxes.
If you have serious concerns or questions or even suggestions, then please approach the municipality and engage yourself in the process. If you really feel so upset about the end to end process then you should get involved and initiate the change. It can be canvassing door to door to get extra funding for firefighters or initiating a signature campaign to ask township to make changes or ask friends and family to volunteer so that Lawrence Sq Blvd fire company can be reopened.
It is very easy to sit on a computer desk and criticize everything but it takes a lot to get out and make it happen.

Do you think you have what it takes or will you keep hiding behind your computer?

i am surprised they got there 11 minutes after dispatch. It takes me almost 3 minutes just from the beginning of the neighborhood to where the house is; because of the traffic pattern and bumps regardless of cars blocking the road, And I drive a sports car. And when did everyone become a fire expert to what the procedures are when arriving at a scene. Its not as simple as " HOLY CRAP FIRE Grab the hose and spray thousands of gallons of water (that needs to be pressurized mind you) and run into a house that was going to burn down regardless. What did you guys expect the outcome of this fire to be? The house was going to burn down period look at the size of the inferno for crying out loud. I am surprised there is still structure remaining and the neighbor's siding is not a pool of plastic on the ground. It is ALWAYS easier to criticize that do something about it. And why does 25 minutes keep being thrown around. there are OFFICIAL documents stating that it took 11 minutes for the first engine to arrive. Unless that has been some how falsified. I do not see the ongoing point of this discussion.

Patch you need to moderate your comments better. Although it brings you traffic 90% of this rambling is bs.

be the change you wish to see.